Fact

[davidmorrocco]

My sister is 7 years older. She grew up with a brutal divorce and two different job changes that our mom went through. Those times when I was younger were really bad, she protected me from the yelling and screaming. By the time I was in school the house was calm and loving. My sister and my mom were already at odds with each other and never recovered. My sister has passed away without ever making up with my mother.

[yvo]

I'm so sorry to hear that, especially as they never reconciled. Families are complicated, across the board. While I do believe that Joan was difficult, big part of me thinks Tina is/was acting out of jealousy- some misplaced feeling of being owed more, by Joan herself or the world in general..
I never read the book, but I saw the movie. I enjoy it for its camp value, but it does seem exaggerated.

[Admin]

Oct 22, 2020 13:40:32 GMT -6 davidmorrocco said:

My sister is 7 years older. She grew up with a brutal divorce and two different job changes that our mom went through. Those times when I was younger were really bad, she protected me from the yelling and screaming. By the time I was in school the house was calm and loving. My sister and my mom were already at odds with each other and never recovered. My sister has passed away without ever making up with my mother.

I agree: People can be completely different at different times in their lives. Joan adopted Christina and Christopher as babies in '39 and '41, respectively, and I think as they grew older by the early '50s, she was having both career/money and alcohol problems. Plus her own deprived childhood made her less patient with kids whom she probably saw as leading cushy lives and not being grateful for all of the perks they had (that she had not). By the time twins Cathy and Cindy were adopted in '47 and got old enough to understand things, Joan had met Al Steele, who solved some immediate money problems; when he died in '59, Joan was older and more mellow (with fewer career demands). Both Cathy and Cindy say Joan was a good mother.

Personally, I grew up with a cold mother and a violent father who divorced when I was 12 years old. (And I was happy when they did divorce! No more violence...but the coldness persisted.) I'm sorry to hear that your sister and mother never reconciled. For instance, earlier this year, I ended a 3-year period of not speaking to my mother (I finally realized: she's nearly 80---it's not like she's in her 60s and we both have decades ahead of us...we don't. So I contacted her and we made up. And, just today, as a matter of fact: My father called me for the first time in 10 years after I sent him a thank-you note for a Certificate of Deposit that he'd signed over to me.)

Long story short: Don't let these things stew and brew for years, or you'll regret it. I'm sure Tina has her regrets, though I doubt she'll ever admit it.

[davidmorrocco]

I’m glad that you and your mom are speaking again. It may not be easy, but I give you a lot of credit for the fact that you realized she’s not getting any younger. Also, what a coincidence that you heard from your dad today. Keep it going. I’m so happy and proud of you. Thanks for sharing your story with us. 

[davidmorrocco]

Can you imagine what the relationship with Joan and her mom must have been like?  Plus dealing with her brother, the leach. I heard that Joan took care of her mother when her mom moved to California, but the actual relationship was kept at arms length. Joan got her brother a job at the studio, but he messed that up and wanted money from Joan about an adult movie she allegedly made before she came to California. He was going to blackmail his sister.  I don’t know for a fact that all this is true and I don’t want to start roomers about her or her family. Perhaps someone who knows more can add to this. Thanks 

[Admin]

Oct 27, 2020 13:27:29 GMT -6 davidmorrocco said:

Can you imagine what the relationship with Joan and her mom must have been like?  Plus dealing with her brother, the leach. I heard that Joan took care of her mother when her mom moved to California, but the actual relationship was kept at arms length. Joan got her brother a job at the studio, but he messed that up and wanted money from Joan about an adult movie she allegedly made before she came to California. He was going to blackmail his sister.  I don’t know for a fact that all this is true and I don’t want to start roomers about her or her family. Perhaps someone who knows more can add to this. Thanks 

Here's one quote from Joan in "Conversations w' Joan Crawford" re her mother and brother Hal:

I don't think she really loved me, but when you consider the life she led, what the hell. She married too young and too often. She was a little Swedish girl who wasn't too bright. All the way along, the wrong men appealed to her, and she worked her ass off, more often supporting them than they supported her. She was old and tired by the time she was 49, and when she came out here [Hollywood] at least a few of the fires had been put out, and she could be Hal's [Joan's brother] servant and my friend. She was a good woman, even though she ignored me when I was a kid, and she found life a lot easier during her last years... We weren't really close--we never had been...I let her live her own lifestyle, and that style included Hal, and I simply wouldn't have him around, so her loyalties had to have been divided.

[davidmorrocco]

You found the quote from Joan herself that pretty much sums up the relationship with her mother and brother. Joan is a professional so she’s not going to say anything to reflect badly on her family. Other than what was quoted. That would start more talk in Hollywood of a subject Joan probably wants to close and move on. If you read between the lines you can sense Joan’s hurt. Her mother and brother were close and Joan was the independent one. Joan being smart had made her own family of Hollywood stars and her always loving fans. I’m sure it was best for her. Thanks so very much for the time you took to locate this article. I really appreciate it. 

[yvo]

That's the thing, Joan was incredibly smart but she had almost no sense of self-worth I believe. And I think this stems from the troubled relationship she had with Anna and to the extent Hal.

[Admin]

Nov 7, 2020 5:30:19 GMT -6 yvo said:

That's the thing, Joan was incredibly smart but she had almost no sense of self-worth I believe. And I think this stems from the troubled relationship she had with Anna and to the extent Hal.

Here's a weird psychological thing that I know about from personal childhood experience, and just maybe Joan shared: You might actually have a definite sense of self-worth---you KNOW that you are smart or pretty, or that you SEE more than others do, or whatever. And some of that gets acknowledged by the outer world to some extent. (Me, in grade school and high school and from relatives like grandparents. Joan, not being considered pretty until her teens, and then getting a BIG boost from the outer world once she struck out on her own---from her dance-hall days and then, obviously, once she hit it big in Hollywood.)

But what if what you initially secretly think about yourself is not acknowledged by those closest to you: Your immediate family. What if you're treated like shit to begin with, until you can leave home? That's 16 to 18 years of brainwashing that you're NOT good from those closest to you. THAT is what might mess with your mind!

Aside from Joan, I've also read a lot about Anne Sexton and John Lennon---both, in latter days, said the same: They kind of knew/felt they were geniuses of some sort in their early teen years, but both were knocked down in their households.

So... I think Joan actually DID have a sense of self-worth! But then got mixed signals. Who to believe? Yourself? Those closest to you? or The outside world?

[davidmorrocco]

I was watching Antiques Roadshow. They had a man who’s grandmother worked as a caretaker for Christina and Christopher. This was before Cathy and Cindy. He had a beautiful personal signed photograph of Joan and very detailed daily time schedule including when to have them sit on the potty. I guess Joan had to do that so nothing was overlooked. She had enough to do without having to come home and wonder if her children were fed, bathed or anything else. I know it could look bad to some people, but I can understand why she felt a strict schedule worked for her and her children.